[Scummvm-devel] Team Charter

Willem Jan Palenstijn wjp at usecode.org
Thu Jan 18 10:34:36 CET 2018


Hi Arnaud,

I'm still catching up on the emails from the last few days, (Great to see so
much discussion again!) but I want to jump into the conversation here.


> Concerning the use of -devel for asking questions, I must confess I'm not
> doing it that much, for various reasons.
> The main one is that I don't consider myself able to handle huge changes in
> the common code, so I only work on engines and therefore directly
> communicate with the people concerned (if any :)).
> Discussions on -devel often turn into noisy rants not related to the
> original topic, so it's useless to generate noise when only 2 or 3 people
> are involved. No idea how other people feel about that.

I am really sad you feel this way, and couldn't disagree more with the
sentiments in this paragraph.

Defaulting to private communication in this way hides activity, and encourages
"ownership" of code. The largest part of our codebase is engine code, and there
should be no reason not to discuss this in public.

The default communication mode should really be public, and I would argue that
this is also the general gist of Max' mail that Tarek refers to; in particular
the last 6 paragraphs.

Public communication (on any issue) makes people feel more involved, and
encourages developers to move outside the areas of the project they already
know, increasing coherence and the feeling of being part of a team. Publicly
visible activity is also a great motivator, as it is what makes the project
feel alive.



If, as you say, discussions turn into noisy rants, then that is something to
work on (and I would say Max' mail is strongly related), but should never
preclude public communication.


-Willem Jan





On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 10:09:42AM +0100, Arnaud Boutonné wrote:
> Hi Tarek
> 
> Sorry for the late answer. Not that I didn't have time to read it, I just
> didn't know exactly what to answer in order to be useful.
> I remember that mail from Max, and I agree with everything even if I would
> *eventually* rephrase a sentence or two.
> 
> I didn't know what to say, because I thought that we were already applying
> this. For example, when Max was around, I was particularly appreciating the
> way he was reviewing code.
> I'm still convinced today that my code was more polished (by far) when he
> was (finally ;)) telling it was decent and mergeable.
> 
> So, well, I'm even surprised we haven't put that somewhere on the wiki
> already, because on the main lines this is what is told to newcomers when
> they are accepted in the team.
> 
> Concerning the use of -devel for asking questions, I must confess I'm not
> doing it that much, for various reasons.
> The main one is that I don't consider myself able to handle huge changes in
> the common code, so I only work on engines and therefore directly
> communicate with the people concerned (if any :)).
> Discussions on -devel often turn into noisy rants not related to the
> original topic, so it's useless to generate noise when only 2 or 3 people
> are involved. No idea how other people feel about that.
> 
> But I think anyway that this part is already covered: it's not mentioned in
> the text to automatically use -devel, I think that some common sense is
> enough to determine how many people are potentially involved.
> 
> 
> So, all in all, I'm fully in favor to add that in the wiki. Thanks for
> getting this email out of oblivion :)
> 
> Best regards,
> Arnaud
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 1:59 AM, Tarek Soliman <tsoliman at scummvm.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 01:12:49AM -0600, Colin Snover wrote:
> > > I think this is a good idea. I have found on other projects that a short
> > > document describing goals and expectations, which gets revised from time
> > > to time, can do a lot to promote mutual understanding and give
> > > transparency and confidence around the “why”s and “how”s of everything.
> > > I hope I can provide useful feedback and that we can all come up with
> > > something great together.
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to reply :)
> >
> > > If I understand correctly what you are trying to do here, I think it is
> > > important to communicate up front that making a bunch of changes is not
> > > the goal here. Instead, the goal is simply to get an open conversation
> > > going so we can actually figure these things out together and write them
> > > down. Is this correct?
> >
> > Exactly, I would like everyone to participate so that everyone can be
> > heard.
> >
> > > One thing I noticed is that the quoted email from Max seems to speak
> > > more about a code of conduct than a direction.
> >
> > Yes it was only meant as a starting point for the conversation.
> > This is one of those things that can't be based on a single (former)
> > member.
> >
> > > I think having guidelines
> > > like these can be really valuable, and, based on the lack of response so
> > > far (and my own feelings), I wonder if this is too big and overwhelming
> > > to start with.
> >
> > Yes I was mildly surprised that there was no response.
> > My first thought was that people didn't have time or are not reading
> > -devel.
> > The other thread getting traction made this less likely the case.
> >
> > My next thought was that maybe people don't think it is safe to do so.
> > A handful of people have privately expressed that they withhold their
> > thoughts
> > and opinions from -devel and #scummvm because they don't want to start any
> > drama. I figured starting with a code of conduct would increase the safety.
> >
> > > Could you clarify what kind of specific feedback are you
> > > looking for here, and when you would like it by? I also have a
> > > suggestion for a place to start which may be more tractable, if you are
> > > interested.
> >
> > I am looking for general thoughts about the idea itself
> > e.g. "This is a good idea, here are my suggestions ..."
> >   or "This is a bad idea because [reasons]"
> >   or "Here's what I think about [concept]"
> >
> > I am also looking for review of the actual points. Some of them might have
> > been
> > relevant back when Max wrote them. We are now almost 7 years later. Things
> > may
> > have changed, invalidating some of it. I am also looking for new ideas.
> > e.g. "We should think twice before we post to -devel becasue [reasons]"
> >   or "We should only do code reviews in situations where ..."
> >   or "It is totally ok nowadays to [one of the listed bad behaviors]
> > becasue [reasons]"
> >   or "We also should explicitly mention [unlisted idea]"
> >
> > > It would also be helpful for me if you have some examples of these sorts
> > > of documents from other OSS projects which you feel are particularly
> > > eloquent or useful in guiding this discussion. I would be interested in
> > > seeing what others come up with too, if they know of any.
> >
> > This isn't inspired by other OSS projects, so I don't have any handy.
> > This is solely based on my observations about team communication and
> > behavior.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tarek
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Scummvm-devel mailing list
> > Scummvm-devel at lists.scummvm.org
> > http://lists.scummvm.org/listinfo/scummvm-devel
> >

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