<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Tarek</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry for the late answer. Not that I didn't have time to read it, I just didn't know exactly what to answer in order to be useful.</div><div>I remember that mail from Max, and I agree with everything even if I would *eventually* rephrase a sentence or two.</div><div><br></div><div>I didn't know what to say, because I thought that we were already applying this. For example, when Max was around, I was particularly appreciating the way he was reviewing code.</div><div>I'm still convinced today that my code was more polished (by far) when he was (finally ;)) telling it was decent and mergeable. </div><div><br></div><div>So, well, I'm even surprised we haven't put that somewhere on the wiki already, because on the main lines this is what is told to newcomers when they are accepted in the team.</div><div><br></div><div>Concerning the use of -devel for asking questions, I must confess I'm not doing it that much, for various reasons.</div><div>The main one is that I don't consider myself able to handle huge changes in the common code, so I only work on engines and therefore directly communicate with the people concerned (if any :)).</div><div>Discussions on -devel often turn into noisy rants not related to the original topic, so it's useless to generate noise when only 2 or 3 people are involved. No idea how other people feel about that.</div><div><br></div><div>But I think anyway that this part is already covered: it's not mentioned in the text to automatically use -devel, I think that some common sense is enough to determine how many people are potentially involved.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So, all in all, I'm fully in favor to add that in the wiki. Thanks for getting this email out of oblivion :)</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Arnaud</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 1:59 AM, Tarek Soliman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tsoliman@scummvm.org" target="_blank">tsoliman@scummvm.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 01:12:49AM -0600, Colin Snover wrote:<br>
> I think this is a good idea. I have found on other projects that a short<br>
> document describing goals and expectations, which gets revised from time<br>
> to time, can do a lot to promote mutual understanding and give<br>
> transparency and confidence around the “why”s and “how”s of everything.<br>
> I hope I can provide useful feedback and that we can all come up with<br>
> something great together.<br>
<br>
</span>Thanks for taking the time to reply :)<br>
<span><br>
> If I understand correctly what you are trying to do here, I think it is<br>
> important to communicate up front that making a bunch of changes is not<br>
> the goal here. Instead, the goal is simply to get an open conversation<br>
> going so we can actually figure these things out together and write them<br>
> down. Is this correct?<br>
<br>
</span>Exactly, I would like everyone to participate so that everyone can be heard.<br>
<span><br>
> One thing I noticed is that the quoted email from Max seems to speak<br>
> more about a code of conduct than a direction.<br>
<br>
</span>Yes it was only meant as a starting point for the conversation.<br>
This is one of those things that can't be based on a single (former) member.<br>
<span><br>
> I think having guidelines<br>
> like these can be really valuable, and, based on the lack of response so<br>
> far (and my own feelings), I wonder if this is too big and overwhelming<br>
> to start with.<br>
<br>
</span>Yes I was mildly surprised that there was no response.<br>
My first thought was that people didn't have time or are not reading -devel.<br>
The other thread getting traction made this less likely the case.<br>
<br>
My next thought was that maybe people don't think it is safe to do so.<br>
A handful of people have privately expressed that they withhold their thoughts<br>
and opinions from -devel and #scummvm because they don't want to start any<br>
drama. I figured starting with a code of conduct would increase the safety.<br>
<span><br>
> Could you clarify what kind of specific feedback are you<br>
> looking for here, and when you would like it by? I also have a<br>
> suggestion for a place to start which may be more tractable, if you are<br>
> interested.<br>
<br>
</span>I am looking for general thoughts about the idea itself<br>
e.g. "This is a good idea, here are my suggestions ..."<br>
or "This is a bad idea because [reasons]"<br>
or "Here's what I think about [concept]"<br>
<br>
I am also looking for review of the actual points. Some of them might have been<br>
relevant back when Max wrote them. We are now almost 7 years later. Things may<br>
have changed, invalidating some of it. I am also looking for new ideas.<br>
e.g. "We should think twice before we post to -devel becasue [reasons]"<br>
or "We should only do code reviews in situations where ..."<br>
or "It is totally ok nowadays to [one of the listed bad behaviors] becasue [reasons]"<br>
or "We also should explicitly mention [unlisted idea]"<br>
<span><br>
> It would also be helpful for me if you have some examples of these sorts<br>
> of documents from other OSS projects which you feel are particularly<br>
> eloquent or useful in guiding this discussion. I would be interested in<br>
> seeing what others come up with too, if they know of any.<br>
<br>
</span>This isn't inspired by other OSS projects, so I don't have any handy.<br>
This is solely based on my observations about team communication and behavior.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Tarek<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
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